Curse

cebalrai · May 01, 2008, 08:21 PM // 20:21

I just purchased this laptop from Gateway:

http://www.gateway.com/systems/product/529668034.php

Gateway only sells the 32-bit version of Vista however, which means the computer isn't going to be taking advantage of the full 4 GB of RAM. The sales associate tells me the computer is going to read somewhere between 3.25 GB and 3.75 GB of RAM.

With that in mind, do you folks think this is still a good deal? I'd be "wasting" a fair bit of memory. Not that many applications can take advantage of 4GB today, but I need this thing to last me the next 3 years whilst the Air Force has me in Japan...

zamial · May 01, 2008, 08:51 PM // 20:51

vista 32 bit is a waste. the entire reason to move to vista is for 64 bit os.

up to you tho alot of people use the 32 bit.

cebalrai · May 01, 2008, 08:55 PM // 20:55

It's not a move. XP is sold on very few laptop models and will be discontinued in a couple months.

Also, Vista-64 on laptops is sketchy. My other laptop (a HP) has it and there's no adequate sound driver for it. The best thing HP tech support provides is a gimped up version. It works fine unless I need to change the volume while there's sound going on, then it lags the whole system for 20 secs whenever there's an adjustment.

So it's hit and miss.....

Quaker · May 02, 2008, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

The sales associate tells me the computer is going to read somewhere between 3.25 GB and 3.75 GB of RAM

RAM (DDR2) is really cheap these days. Most laptops require you to use 2 identical sticks, so your only real options would be to have only 2 gig of RAM, or 3.x gigs of RAM. You'd "waste" less than a gig of RAM - that's about $12 - maybe if you save up for a while, you could afford it.

Or, to put it another way, the same laptop with only 2gigs of RAM would cost, at best, $50 less,

lord_shar · May 02, 2008, 07:21 PM // 19:21

I just got the following refurb system for about $2500:

Dell XPS M1730
Intel X9000 Core2Extreme 2.8ghz (OC's to 3.4 out of the box)
NVidia 8800M-GTX SLI video + Aegia Phys-X processor
1920x1200 display
4gigs RAM
200gig 7200rpm freefall sensing HD
Illuminated keboard w/ Logitech mini-LCD
BT/802.11a/g wireless
DVD RW / BluRay ROM
wireless remote
Windows Vista Preimum

It was encountering the same RAM count problem you mentioned above until I stalled Windows Vista SP1. Now it reads 4gigs system RAM available.

You can find SP1 here: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...DisplayLang=en

whiteyboy · May 02, 2008, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Get XP 64 bit

And vista eats you're ram, so you probably will get about 2GIG, well you will just get the same performance as 2GIG

Admael · May 02, 2008, 10:03 PM // 22:03

I don't recommend XP 64-bit, driver support on that is minimum, and Vista does use a lot of RAM, but anyone that knows Windows, can slow it down to 25% with the right tweaks (M$' fault, you'd expect something you'd pay for to run right out the box right? but blame the Corporation, not the OS).

There's also a lot more driver support for Vista 64 than XP 64. (I can't even get GeForce7950GX2 to run properly on XP 64, and that's a 4 year old video card)

Vista 32 is fine if you don't want the hassle. But there are more 64 bit applications being developed and since 32 emulates fine on the 64, theres no reason not to go 64.

I use Vista 64 @ 2GB RAM. Theres no reason to go more. Faster RAM > More RAM.

cebalrai · May 02, 2008, 10:56 PM // 22:56

This thread is not about whether or not 64 has advantages over 32.

Still waiting for an on-topic, helpful post.

Malice Black · May 02, 2008, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Still a good deal. That RAM isn't being wasted as such. It'll still be used by your system as and when it needs it.

I'm going to update to 4gb RAM and I only have 32bit Vista.

lord_shar · May 02, 2008, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

This thread is not about whether or not 64 has advantages over 32.

Still waiting for an on-topic, helpful post.

Helpful post? I would have thought the SP1 post I replied with would have corrected the memory issue that started this whole thread. I have Vista SP1 loaded now, and it sees all 4gigs of RAM.

I also posted my system specs because, it a nutshell, you can get twice the hardware at about the same price going the same direction I did, but to each his own...

Malice Black · May 02, 2008, 11:29 PM // 23:29

That is very cheap if you convert the $ to £. I wonder if they ship to the UK...an 8800 machine for £1k. That system here would go for £1700+

cebalrai · May 02, 2008, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Thanks for the input, Malice.

My problem is that I have an intermediate knowledge of hardware and operating systems. I know enough to do a few things, but also my moderate knowledge curses me with an awareness of all the things I have an incomplete grasp of

I was reading something in Maximum PC magazine a while back about how the "missing" memory is only partially wasted and is still accessed in some ways. Wonder what that means...

cebalrai · May 03, 2008, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

Helpful post? I would have thought the SP1 post I replied with would have corrected the memory issue that started this whole thread. I have Vista SP1 loaded now, and it sees all 4gigs of RAM.

I also posted my system specs because, it a nutshell, you can get twice the hardware at about the same price going the same direction I did, but to each his own...

Your post is not helpful for a few reasons:

1) You didn't specify whether you had 32 or 64.
2) Vista 32 sometimes sees the full 4 Gigs but it doesn't fully utilize that. The basic formula is 4 Gigs, minus the video ram (and a couple other driver things). With a full 1 GB of video memory in your machine, your OS is actually accessing a lot less than 3 GB of system memory. So you may be getting misled.
3) Vista SP1 didn't have anything about allowing the 32-bit OS to access more memory.
4) Dell sells that model refurbed except with a substantially worse SLI'd 8700 for the price you mentioned. Not to mention that blu-ray ROM. How are you somehow getting that huge upgrade for free?
5) Dell isn't selling the refurbished model you have with SLI'd 8800's right now so how is this supposed to be useful to me?
6) I don't believe you got what you say you did for that price. Send me the link to your receipt or something perhaps?

Admael · May 03, 2008, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Here's a helpful post:

If and when you do decide to buy this laptop, take the RAM out and throw it away. Then buy some name brand RAM with faster timings and better bandwidth, then you'll realize that 512MB of RAM you're missing out on, isn't a big deal.

My previous post wasn't under the intention of debating 32 and 64 bit, but to open a future possibility of upgrading to 64?

So I'll repeat again. Faster RAM > More RAM. 512 MB is nothing when compared to the other 3.5 GB.

cebalrai · May 03, 2008, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Admael

Here's a helpful post:

If and when you do decide to buy this laptop, take the RAM out and throw it away. Then buy some name brand RAM with faster timings and better bandwidth, then you'll realize that 512MB of RAM you're missing out on, isn't a big deal.

My previous post wasn't under the intention of debating 32 and 64 bit, but to open a future possibility of upgrading to 64?

So I'll repeat again. Faster RAM > More RAM. 512 MB is nothing when compared to the other 3.5 GB.

No that's still not helpful at all. Everyone knows that fast RAM > slow RAM. I'm well aware of this potential upgrade path. Why are you telling me this>

And where are you getting Faster RAM > more RAM? As far as I can tell, it depends on what the situation is. Laying down sweeping generalizations like this with no source ends up being completely meaningless.

Anyway, I swapped out the RAM in my desktop for some OCZ gaming sticks with 2-3-2-5 timing and got no noticeable improvement in any games I play. My FPS in GW increased by 2 FPS. Not worth the money I spent. Maybe it would be more noticeable in other apps though.

Admael · May 03, 2008, 02:01 AM // 02:01

If you don't need to be told this? Why are you bickering the 512 MB loss from using a 32 bit operating system?

The restriction for <4GBs on a 32 bit OS will always stand, because there is no 32-bit application that is capable of using more than 4GBs. That's all.

EDIT: The 'no noticeable improvement in games you play' bit is probably due to a bottleneck somewhere else. 2-3-2-5 sounds like DDR RAM (or DDR2, but you'd have to drop a real fortune on it, some Micron D9's go that low, you'd have to 2.35 and active cool it tho). You can't expect RAM to make that leap if your other components are lacking.

cebalrai · May 03, 2008, 02:28 AM // 02:28

How am I "bickering" about RAM loss? I'm asking for people's input.

(on-topic input that is)

lord_shar · May 04, 2008, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

Your post is not helpful for a few reasons:

1) You didn't specify whether you had 32 or 64.

Sure I did... just not directly. I did mention that my system did encounter the sub-4gig memory, which is only present in 32-bit Windows OS versions. Furthermore, the SP1 URL I posted does say it's for 32-bit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

2) Vista 32 sometimes sees the full 4 Gigs but it doesn't fully utilize that. The basic formula is 4 Gigs, minus the video ram (and a couple other driver things). With a full 1 GB of video memory in your machine, your OS is actually accessing a lot less than 3 GB of system memory. So you may be getting misled.

3) Vista SP1 didn't have anything about allowing the 32-bit OS to access more memory.

Perhaps, but all the Dell and MS diagnostics on board state 4gigs RAM are present.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

4) Dell sells that model refurbed except with a substantially worse SLI'd 8700 for the price you mentioned. Not to mention that blu-ray ROM. How are you somehow getting that huge upgrade for free?

Because the model I purchased was marked "Scratch/Dent," which is further discounted 30%. Guess what? I'm staring at the laptop now, and the unit looks new aside from small scuff mark on one of the blue transparent cover logos -- it's so small that I barely notice it. Furthermore, that scuffed panel is getting replaced under warranty (got the complete care extended accident warranty package). I actually have the replacement panel now, but Dell needs to ship a 2nd unit since its colors are different (getting switched from blue to gray). I'll be seeing this probably Monday.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

5) Dell isn't selling the refurbished model you have with SLI'd 8800's right now so how is this supposed to be useful to me?

Dell Outlet sells M1730 SLI's frequently, but many people run cart-bots that basically grab and hold inventory until the Dell Outlet's 15-minute cart-expiration policy returns it. Then the bots grab the same units all over again. I watched the same high-end X9000 CPU 8800GTX SLI rig leave and re-enter inventory a whole week. You basically have to sit on the Dell Outlet page until you see the rig you want, then grab it before the cart bots do (you have only a few minutes to do so before they snag it again). Once you do, place a phone order, give the phone agent the system-ID, then either release it to him or just complete your order only. Yes this is tedious, but it's the only way to get the system you want on the Dell Outlet until they can solve the cart-bot issue. I saved $2500 going the above route... is that worth it to you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

6) I don't believe you got what you say you did for that price. Send me the link to your receipt or something perhaps?

All the Dell Outlet invoice URL's require my personal login/password, so here's a picture of my actual invoice along with the minor scratch mark (almost invisible).

The total system price was $3033 with tax and 3-year complete care extended warranty. But here's a picture of the unit price... check out the subtotal with the BT module added (+20$):

The lower red-circled area is the scuff mark, soon to be replaced with two brand new, spotless gray panels.

System Properties:

Notice the Ageia PhysX board, X9000 Extreme CPU, DVDRW/BluRay Disk, and twin 8800M-GTX SLI.

So did I get the system for $2500? Yes I did, but there are two things no one will never escape: death and taxes. The extra $300 3-year complete care package is a no-brainer since it covers everything, even accidental damage. The LCD display alone is $1200 if you should ever have to replace it out-of-pocket...

cebalrai · May 04, 2008, 03:10 AM // 03:10

Okay, well you said refurb not scratch 'n dent.

And adding another $1100 to my purchase isn't an option so no, the advice of "just get a better computer" isn't helpful.

lord_shar · May 04, 2008, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

Okay, well you said refurb not scratch 'n dent.

And adding another $1100 to my purchase isn't an option so no, the advice of "just get a better computer" isn't helpful.

Refurbs and Scratch/Dent are pretty much the same in Dell's eyes, but you may have (more) cosmetic marks on the S/D units. Some S/D's have never been opened by customers, but the packing box suffered damage during transit, so Dell cannot technically resell it as new despite never having been delivered or used. The Dell Outlet cannot re-sell any model with any marks larger than 1" regardless of the classification. All marked exterior components can be replaced post-purchase for far less than buying new. Even if you don't like the unit, you have 21 days from delivery to return the product with zero cost out of pocket. Result: zero risk for buying and trying. My scratch/dent looks absolutely new aside from the noted area which is only visible in reflected light, and that component will be replaced in less than 4 days.

My point wasn't to suggest throwing more hardware at the memory issue. My intent to answer your 1st post inquiry:

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

...<SNIP>...
With that in mind, do you folks think this is still a good deal? I'd be "wasting" a fair bit of memory. Not that many applications can take advantage of 4GB today, but I need this thing to last me the next 3 years whilst the Air Force has me in Japan...

The system you ordered was fair at $2319 USD, but there are better options available. My system really was $2511 as shown by the receipt vs. your Gateway's $2319. If you don't consider getting 2x the hardware (x9000 2.8 to 3.4ghz CPU, 8800M-GTX SLI, DVDRW/BluRay ROM, Ageia PhysX card, etc...) at +$180 or 8% cost difference helpful, then I think you're missing more than just system RAM count...

EDIT: BTW, where did you get the +$1100 difference? I just checked the Dell outlet and found a few M1730's with 8800SLI's... but they got snatched up by the bots as usual. Gotta wait another 15-min to see them.

Also, is it too late to cancel or return your Gateway order? If so, then I can see why this advice isn't helpful... for that I apologize.

As far as the memory topic, if the missing 12%+ RAM bothers you too much, just make the 64-bit leap. Personally, I've never noticed it, and I do some pretty memory intensive apps like large image editing, video transcoding, etc...